If we can’t be vulnerable and honest about these struggles, how will others know we need help? I have no interest in being fake. It’s exhausting. If I wanted to be inauthentic, I would have stayed in the fashion industry. — Kate Lynch
Kate Lynch of Atypical Kids, Mindful Parents has been a friend of In Tending for a while now. She joined us last year to talk about how mindfulness, plus parenting an “atypical kid,” helped her “get off the hamster wheel of competitive parenting.” She and I have also spoken about the ways in which mindfulness and creativity have supported us through seasons of burnout during the toddler years, and advocating for our kids during their K-12 years.
Now Kate’s back with news of a new retreat she’s running in May, to support other mothers who are battling burnout and hoping for respite around Mother’s Day. For those who can’t make it to an IRL retreat, we also discuss Kate’s online summit at the end of the month, as well as the online workshop I’m running on May 6 with Lisa Sibbett of The Auntie Bulletin, in which we offer tools for self-compassion to those who find Mother’s Day complicated.
In the interview that follows, Kate and I discuss:
How Kate traded “fake fashion” for touching grass (00:05:47), and how this led to the creation of her Soft Landing retreat in the Poconos, for those who wish to opt out of a performative version of Mother’s Day (00:12:12)
The constituencies we serve who find Mother’s Day most complicated, from those who are bereaved and estranged to those battling infertility and pregnancy loss (00:17:12)
The need to go beyond binary narratives of motherhood (00:21:50), and how retreats can create room for this both/and (00:24:57)
How some of the common mindfulness tools we offer for re-parenting, such as self-compassion, can come with their own complications (00:32:28)
On calling on the Earth herself for maternal support–and also, maybe Dolly Parton (00:34:43)
On holding space as highly sensitive leaders, and creating structures that support us too (00:45:17)
Note: Some email clients may cut off the end of this interview, so it’s best viewed in a browser. Alternatively, if you’d like to listen to the full audio, podcast-style, you can view the video or download the audio here.
How Kate traded “fake fashion” for touching grass
(00:05:47) Ryan: Kate, you are a friend of the newsletter. You and I have done podcasts together. Because really, there is such a large Venn diagram overlap in our work, where both you and I are parents to neurodivergent children, and we also work with parents. We support them with mindfulness tools. It’s just a very easy synergy with us.
You came and did an interview last year where you were talking about your own experiences with being able to touch into nature as a child, going into the fashion industry, and then kind of having this return, to coming back to the body, later on in life.
I just wanted to invite you to share anything that you would like to share about your work at this point, and how you think it can be of benefit to folks in this community who are parents and caregivers trying not to burn out in this moment–and who are looking ahead to Mother’s Day, thinking about what that could mean, in this particular season to them.
How would you connect those dots?
Kate: I could probably talk for hours about it, but there’s some developmental trauma there, and then also having that healing from the land that my parents bought when I was two. When my parents were divorced, I was six, and that has been the constant—that land has been the constant–throughout my life. We moved a lot when I was a kid, and I never really felt a sense of home except for there.
By the time I found yoga, I was already pretty burnt out, very stressed, like you said, in the fashion industry. I was still pretty young. But [yoga] gave me the courage to leave. I traveled around the world, I eventually moved to Australia, then I became a yoga teacher. I spent a lot of time outdoors, living across from the beach, a lot of time walking in the low tide pools. It’s much more lifestyle-oriented there than the way I grew up, as a creative in New York city, kind of having to be scrappy—and as a kid in New York City, really having to be scrappy. When I came back, I landed in Brooklyn, and it really felt like home, being able to go to this place in the Catskills where my dad still has that land.
[After that], for 10 years I taught yoga, and then I had my son. And I had taught a lot of prenatal [yoga] and I really thought I knew how I would raise him, what that was going to be like, the whole kit and caboodle. And he was completely different than my expectation–which is always the case, I think, when we’re raising kids, when we’re parenting separate souls. By three, he had an autism diagnosis, and he’s been diagnosed with ADHD as well. That led me to my own awareness of my own neurodiversity and specifically high sensitivity, which I really didn’t have a name for growing up.
I think there’s the challenge of raising someone who is different, and some people find grief in that. I didn’t really find grief in it. I found more wonder and awe and curiosity and kind of dove in head first. We had prayed for him, in our own way. We had wanted him so much. It was like, “Whoever it is that comes to us, just bring them on. We’re ready. We’ve got so much love.” And this is what the universe gave us.
And he’s amazing. And it was super hard. I didn’t sleep more than two hours for the first year, more than two hours at a stretch ever. And I was older, you know, I was 41 when he was born. So, complicated feelings.
About Soft Landing
(00:12:12) Kate: I think the reason that I designed this particular retreat, Soft Landing, a Mother’s Day weekend retreat for complicated feelings, is not so much about that relationship [with my son] as the one with my mom, which is harder to talk about. I have permission, but I still feel like she’s so sensitive. She knows we have a challenging relationship. She knows that I have unhealed wounds and probably always will. And Mother’s Day can get really tricky for me. There’s been several years where I’ve just wanted to opt out, honestly.
And this is not about running away or opting out, but just kind of taking ownership and doing it my own way. So I designed a retreat that I really wanted to go on. And I’m inviting people who have similar feelings–who can’t quite put it into words, or don’t need to put it into words, don’t need to even know what you’re feeling or understand it, but want to be somewhere where it’s not about being performative, and is about taking care of your own feelings and needs.
Ryan: And giving yourself, as you said, a space to even find some clarity about what they are.
Motherhood is such a big topic, and it can be so easy to pull it into these binary stories. My friend Elissa Strauss is always talking about this in ways that I find so relevant over at MADE WITH CARE, where she’s saying, either there’s the narrative of “Treasure every moment” and “It’s the most sacred special job any woman could ever want or have,” or “Oh my god, we’re prisoners, this is terrible.”
Kate: Or “I’m a bad mom.”
Ryan: Right, right. So I think that having a container, that is held by somebody else, can allow you to create more open spaciousness for yourself.
Going back to the first interview that you did, there’s this quotation that really stayed with me and that feels really relevant to marking or feeling a complicated way about Mother’s Day. Here you were talking about the challenges of your own motherhood path, but I would absolutely bring in our relationships with our own mothers. You said,
“If we can’t be vulnerable and honest about these struggles, how will others know that we need help?”
I think that there’s such a beautiful connection between vulnerability and honesty—not as performative, but as connective.
You went on to say, “I have no interest in being fake. It’s exhausting. If I wanted to be inauthentic, I would have stayed in the fashion industry.”
I love that. I just feel like that captures your voice, where I always think about the notion of having both a soft front and a strong back. You’re someone who has held such tender space for me in my own parenthood journey. I came to you when I was in that place, when my son was two or three. My friend who also has a neurodivergent son calls it “their dysregulated era.” And of course, they still get dysregulated, but we’re talking about that experience of like, they’re not sleeping, or they can’t be in school, or having meltdowns that go on and on. I came to you as a bowl of Jello, asking “What do I do?” And you held such tender space for me,
But there’s also this part of you that is very strong back, and that’s very Brooklyn. That’s very, “I don’t want to be fake.” It’s just something that I appreciate about you. You’re just very multifaceted as a parent, as a space holder, as a teacher.
I think that there are those of us who are really interested in exploring all the complexities of parenting, and need that sense that we can be tough sometimes. We can leave home sometimes and be like, “You guys figure it out. I’m going on retreat. I don’t want to participate in whatever Hallmark says I’m supposed to be doing on this day.”
For whom is Mother’s Day most complicated?
(00:17:12) Ryan: And so I also just want to bring in, related to that, all of the different constituencies that are in my community, that might be in your community, and that are also in the community of a friend of mine, @ Lisa Sibbett of the Auntie Bulletin. She actually did a survey of people and what’s hard about Mother’s Day last year, and we did a series around it.
The survey results showed that grieving the loss of a parent is a huge one for Mother’s Day. I had alluded to this on Notes, but I just came back from the funeral of one of my best friend’s mother—just a sparkly, beautiful Italian matriarch who I’ve known for 25 years. Obviously the first Mother’s Day without your mother is profound in so many different ways. Regardless of what that relationship has been, now it’s shifted.
You mentioned waiting a long time for your child; I experienced infertility for years and have had some really terrible Mother’s Days that frame of time.
I’ve experienced pregnancy loss. The first Mother’s Day after a pregnancy loss is so poignant.
There are other people who have experienced uncertainty on the path to family building—everything from cancer impacting your reproductive potential to divorce.
Some people know that they’re not going to have kids of their own—for example, if they have a chronic illness that would make it very difficult to care for that child. (That’s #4 on Lisa’s own list of reasons.)
There are people who are step parents where very often it gets a little awkward, I’ve learned, in terms of step children.
Kate: Or they’re a stepchild.
Ryan: Right. The scripts aren’t as clear, and sometimes that can be a good thing, that you can write your own. And sometimes it can mean that there’s kind of a silence and an invisibility around that. Or, conversely, a lot of expectations around that, that don’t feel authentic.
If you have a difficult relationship with your own mother, obviously it’s very difficult. And that’s something that I’ve experienced. Or a difficult relationship with your mother-in-law.
Any kind of estrangement, even if it’s not from your own mother, can really be hard.
People have talked about coming from queer families with two mothers and really feeling kind of torn between.
And then people have talked about going through gender transitions that have changed the way that either they’re viewed or seen as parents, [and/or] the way that their parents relate to them, in ways that can feel really hard. There’s this movement towards authenticity that then actually shifts how people view you, in relationship to gender, because obviously the term mother is so gendered.
So those were some of the main categories of struggle or complication. And perhaps the kinds of people who might want to come and have space held for them at your retreat that’s coming up, or that might want to come and do some writing with me and Lisa this year for our now-annual Complicated Mother’s Day celebration.
I’m just wondering if there’s anything you would add to the list.
And for folks that are here live, I’m wondering if there are other categories of tension, of complication, that might come into this day.
Kate: Yeah, I would love to hear from people who are here with us live.
And I was just going to reinforce the idea of the gender binary. One of my mentors, Jacoby Ballard, who wrote A Queer Dharma, was asked by his child’s teacher at one point—and I think he was doing a lot of the caregiving work, including carrying the child and giving birth—what do we do about Father’s Day and Mother’s Day? And he said, we both celebrate both.
I love that, and I also feel like I wish it wasn’t so binary.
Going beyond binary narratives of motherhood
(00:21:50) Kate: And sometimes, the fact that it’s put in such a box of being so black and white, rather than this true gray that the relationship with mothers can be, that makes it tough to feel authentic, I think.
It feels like such a stereotype, and maybe an archetype also, but not one that I relate to as my whole self.
Each of us has different aspects. I’m actually a very loving, caring and supportive daughter who also has not completely forgiven her parents for the harms that happened. Even though I understand that they couldn’t do better, it still hurts.
Ryan: Right. It still hurts.
Kate: You know?
Ryan: Yeah.
And I do feel like sometimes, as you said, the narratives around our own parenting can get really shoved into these good-bad binaries, or this very femme-masc binary, that may not feel really relevant to us. And that makes it really difficult to see our own parents with any clarity, and to really let them be whole people, and to let the relationship be a whole relationship.
I was with a friend this weekend who was talking about this, and she said that her mantra is, “You don’t have to like everything about a person to love them.”
She was really trying to sit with that, because in the past it was like, maybe she felt as though, if she had one single tiny criticism about somebody that she loved, it meant that she was unloving, or that she didn’t love them enough, or that she viewed them as bad. And so there might be some suppression of some valid critique, or a place where more accountability is necessary, because there was a rupture and there’s a need for repair. And on the other hand, if you said that you love somebody, then there also wasn’t room for that nuance.
And so I think that it is really beautiful to just have that open space where we don’t have to choose just one story, just one narrative, just one box.
How retreats can create room for the both/and
(00:24:57) Kate: And some of the practices that I do want to explore in the retreat—even though I don’t think it’s necessary or wise to try and exploit feelings and go digging deep, but just as things come up and when we’re ready, like self-compassion practices and reparenting practices—can be really simple.
They don’t have to be so in our heads. We can move that nervous system understanding through our bodies. And that’s something that I want to do as well as being in nature, on that weekend.
Ryan: Which has a sort of mothering quality to it, too—just lying on the ground, being in the water.
Kate: Yeah.
Ryan: Can you say more? What kind of container did you need, and what kind of container have you created, for the complications around Mother’s Day?
Kate: Absolutely.
So the word that’s coming up is permission.
I’ve led several retreats at The Himalayan Institute, which is in the Pocono Mountains of Pennsylvania. So pretty convenient to people in the Northeast, and feels very remote. And it’s just gorgeous. They’re on 400 acres of wooded property, with marked hiking trails. So there’s a lot of opportunity for that immersion in nature. And I also didn’t want it to feel isolating. So permission can feel like, “You get to do whatever you want,” but there is a structure to it, because I think rhythm and structure can give us something to hold onto.
So the structure is permissive, is spacious, is open.
Ryan: And you can sleep in! That part jumped out at me.
Kate: I mean, for those who want to get the most yoga, the most physical practice, they can get up early and do a yoga practice in the Himalayan Institute’s tradition–which is pretty gentle, but does have a lot of standing poses.
What we’re doing is going to be flow-based in the morning, but very, very slow and gentle. And then in the evening after dinner, it’s meditative, it’s restorative. It’s really restorative in the true sense of the word–like a pose for 15 minutes, or savasana for 30 minutes. A lot of deep rest.
The benefit, when things can feel heavy, of doing restorative things, specifically restorative yoga–which is just like, getting into a comfortable position and lying there and making sure you’re warm and cozy, and feel nourished and nurtured, and then changing to another comfortable position and lying there–is that it does something to, not just our nervous systems, but it helps to connect [mind and body.] So many of us are kind of stuck in our heads–or as one of my students said, “Like a head in a jar.” [Yoga] connects the central to the peripheral nervous system, the head to the body, our sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. And then really, we learn so much from what’s already inside us, allowing our intuition to bubble up, once we’ve let the stress melt away.
Ryan: As a retreat girlie, I would almost always rather go on a very bare-bones retreat. Give me some basic white sheets and a closed door over mimosas any day. So I really love the balance between structure and spaciousness that I’m hearing around this retreat. And that’s something that I would definitely be looking for for myself.
I also come from the Buddhist meditation retreat tradition, where there can be a lot of structure. You’re walking, you’re sitting, you’re walking, you’re sitting, you’re walking some more, you’re sitting, you’re listening, you’re eating, you’re silent, you’re walking, you’re sitting. I think that there’s absolutely a time and a place for that, and that has been really supportive to me.
But in this era of my life, I’m feeling the need for more choice. And I know that you and I both come from a trauma informed background of really prioritizing that, and prioritizing the relationship between you and you. You know what you need. Your body knows what you need. Your body will know if you need more vigorousness or more softness. Your body will know if you need more sleep or if you need a dawn walk in the woods. And so this sounds like a container where people are going to have a lot of choice.
Kate: Yeah. Agency is just one of those things that I’m going to always bring in–whether you like it or not. [Laughs] I was recently teaching a weekend, a women’s wellness weekend at Frost Valley in the Catskills, where people don’t know me. One woman called out in the middle, “Just tell us what to do!”
Ryan: Because you were giving like, the full buffet of options.
Kate: Yeah.
Ryan: That’s so funny. I’ve heard that too, when guiding in a trauma informed way–that sometimes people get decision fatigue in the middle of that kind of practice. But for other people it’s essential.
Kate: Right.
When self-compassion itself feels complicated
(00:32:28) Ryan: You touched on self-compassion, and that’s a really big part of my practice at this time of year. And that will be a big focus at the workshop that I am teaching for Complicated Mother’s Day. Tools for self-compassion. Tools for taking care of yourself in a way that you might not be able to receive from a maternal figure in your life at this time.
And I find that for me, it’s really helpful. And I have developed all kinds of ways into the practice, and visualizing different benefactors–meaning different special people in my life–that can kind of help to hold that practice. You’ve even taught me certain practices like that, like your Who’s Got Your Back practice. You’ve guided me to imagine people like this coming and putting their hands on my shoulders. And I think that that can be really empowering and healing for some of us, to be able to call in that sense of presence and of being held and protected.
But I also know from experience, and I’ve heard this from students, that it can be very confronting. It can bring up a lot of anger and grief to feel like, “Why do I have to do this for myself? I wanted this person to do it for me. Why do I have to take this on? Why is this my responsibility?”
And I think that two things can be true. It can be really empowering to say, “I’m no longer going to wait for this. I’m no longer going to wait for a quality of nurturing that is not going to come.” And there’s an acceptance in that. But there’s also a grief and an anger in that.
I’ve also sometimes invited people to imagine “A caring adult from your past, somebody who really cared for you and protected you,” and more than once I’ve had students say, “I can’t think of anybody like that.” You know?
Kate: Yeah.
Ryan: So I wonder how you support people in this. When it’s like, “I don’t actually have a lot of lived experiences with being held by humans, or even the more-than-human world. I don’t have a muscle memory to lean on, in order to evoke that inner holding, in that space.” Does that make sense?
Kate: Absolutely. And I just can’t stop thinking about the Buddha’s practice of touching the earth.
Ryan: Will you tell about that again, for folks that are unfamiliar? I love it.
Asking the Earth for help–and also, maybe Dolly Parton
(00:34:43) Kate: When Mara, who was–I wouldn’t say Buddha’s nemesis, but rather, the Buddha was Mara’s nemesis—was shooting arrows of all kinds of different negativity toward the Buddha, he was sitting under the bodhi tree. Just completely committed to getting enlightened. He’s like, “I’m not leaving until I’m enlightened. I’m just going to sit here.”
Mara shot everything he could possibly think of at the Buddha, and he just kept sitting.
The final arrow was doubt. Was self-doubt.
I know that’s a hard one for me. And the Buddha needed help. With all of the other arrows, he’d turned them into flowers, and they dropped to the ground, right? But the Buddha really needed help with this one. And he acknowledged that he needed help. And he reached out, and he touched the earth. And he asked her to reflect back his inherent goodness. And she did.
And the way Thich Nhat Hanh tells it is like, she carried a bounty of flowers and birds and animals, and she gave them to him, and spread them out before him as a gift. She brought this whole cornucopia of goodness that really reflected and mirrored his inherent goodness. And helped him stay strong. And Mara took off.
But I’ve had teachers who said, “It might not be nature for you. It might be your sister, or friend.” I tend to always start with a compassionate guide in any practice so that we have someone to lean on, and yeah, it might not be Mom, and that’s fine. Or a grandmother or ancestor. As someone assimilated so much into whiteness, it’s hard to connect with many ancestors on that spiritual level. But I can reach down and touch the Earth. I’ve got her.
And, you know, I’ve got, like, Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Ryan: I was just going to say, even fictional characters can be powerful.
And we also all have Dolly Parton.
Kate: Oh, yeah. There’s always that.
Ryan: Ruth Bader Ginsburg, when she was alive.
Kate: Yeah, they’re protective.
Dragons have been great for me. Imagining a dragon circling over to protect my space has been really nurturing in a fierce compassion sort of way.
Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Or I’m thinking of Encanto, where there’s all these prickly cactuses around this beautiful girl.
Kate: I love Encanto so much. Can we get on a separate talk on Live about that?
Ryan: Let’s make a note.
Kate: I was also going to say, there’s a place called the Sound of Music Hill at the Himalayan Institute, and on Saturday afternoon, what I’ve started doing is right after lunch, we’ll do a walking meditation up to the Sound of Music Hill. And then I’ll tell that story, and we’ll think of ways we can connect to the Earth. And to ask her, what would she reflect back to us as our inherent goodness?
And then we go for a chocolate and coffee tasting at the coffee and chocolate factory that’s just right across the way.
Ryan: That sounds about right. Nature, but also chocolate.
Kate: Chocolate, and then silence in the afternoon if you want it. Or walks, or hikes, or massage. Lots of options.
Who might be ripe for retreat?
(00:39:55) Ryan: Have you noticed any sort of trends, or ways that you would categorize the people who find your retreats, and these experiences of reparenting, most fruitful?
Because I know that everyone has a mother, and everyone has some complication around that, but I do wonder if there are just particular kinds of folks where they might be the most ripe for the benefits of this practice, of this retreat, and of what you have to offer.
Kate: The feedback that I’ve had and assimilated over the years, because I’ve been doing these retreats a long time, is from people who already know me. They appreciate my kindness, my sense of humor, and my flexibility in programming and scheduling. Often they’re therapists, or other people who are really open in that way. Or they’re going through some sort of midlife cycle, or Saturn return, or something. They are not super yoga experts, but they’re open to it.
The people who have struggled with the way I teach are people who might have a ton of experience, and have a more rigid idea of the way things should be done. People who were really hoping for more headstands–or any headstands. That’s not going to happen at my retreat.
People who have come really appreciate the container that we co-create, through a process that is communal.
Ryan: What does that look like? Do you co-create norms together? Any other pieces?
Kate: It’s creating norms together, and the way that they’re stated. I usually have a couple that I am insistent on, but we add in whatever else is important to people.
And then there’s a practice that we do to really understand that even though we’re all different, and we’re having different experiences, everybody has suffering.
So it’s not too poking-the-bear. It’s still trauma-informed.
And then, giving people a lot of permission around whether they want to share, or do dyads, or do groups, or not.
I’m rigid about showing up that first night and trying to come to the sessions we have, but I also like to sit back and see what happens in the group, because it is different every time. And that’s such a joy.
Ryan: I can really relate to that as a teacher as well, where it’s like, if you create a really good, solid, safe container, then it’s much easier to sit back and just allow people to find their place in it.
Kate: And I end up not being the only teacher, because everyone has something to share, and give, and teach and speak into. And we all bring something different.
But the first retreat I ever taught, I burned myself out. So I create that spaciousness for myself as well. Because I’m giving a lot. I’m holding a lot of space. even if it doesn’t feel like a lot, it’s a lot. I’m an empath and I’m holding all the vibes at the same time, the energetics of it all.
On holding space as highly sensitive leaders
(00:45:17) Ryan: Tell me a little bit more, because I think that there are probably people in this community that are not only imagining themselves as participants in your retreat, but also a lot of people that are interested in organizing retreats like this. For themselves, for their friends, for their family members. So thinking about creating spaces for tired parents.
I also want to just surface that value of non-comparison. I am not saying that the experiences of people without living children are less valid. But I also think that parents are a population that have particular needs, that maybe actually require a little bit more work sometimes to meet, because we are very depleted.
So if you want to hold space for parents in particular, what advice do you have for us? What are the non-negotiables for meeting the needs of that population within a retreat setting? And what are the non-negotiables for meeting your own needs and making sure that you don’t overextend or like you said, sort of soak up the vibes? Because sometimes when parents kind of open that lid, and start to do mindfulness, it’s like, all kinds of things fly out. As they should. And also, sometimes that can be a lot for a space holder–speaking from personal experience.
What wisdom have you gained through that, through trial and error?
Kate: There’s certainly been errors and trials. But I also have done a lot of training, specifically trauma-informed space-holding training.
I first led workshops, and if you think of a weekend retreat, it’s four or five workshops, back to back on top of each other, without really taking much of a breath in between.So I would lead two or three hour-long workshops first, and see what comes up.
If you have a framework, start to think about how that framework could evolve into a deep dive on a weekend. Because that’s the thing I love about it. People aren’t doing other things while they’re doing this. Maybe they’re answering a couple of emails, but they’re there to do this, so it it gives more space to pay attention, to focus in.
And, go on retreat yourself. Go to places where you might like to lead a retreat, and see how it feels, see how other people are holding space.
And I’m always one to over-prepare, but I have learned from lots of trainings on leading retreats, to know what I would cut first, because it always goes faster than you expect.
The needs vs. the nice-to-haves for parent/caregiver retreats
(00:48:50) Ryan: So what are some things that you would cut, if you have this full slate of things, and maybe you’re also just seeing that your participants have a sluggish vibe, or you can tell that the pace needs to slow? And what are some things that you think you really need to keep?
For example, you’ve said that starting all together with some norms feels like a non-negotiable. What are some things where you hold them a little more loosely?
Kate: I think that I have in the past cut things like Q&As. Or “Turn and talk to someone about your experience of last night.” That can be good, and can kind of be like opening a can of worms, if one person feels a certain way and somebody else feels a different way.
There are definitely going to be times where I want like to have a discussion about whatever is coming up, and then there’s time for that. But sometimes I’ll just be like, “Okay, everybody grab three blankets and two bolsters and we’re going to do [restorative yoga]. That’s the priority.”
Ryan: Less talk-y, more sleep-y.
Kate: Yeah. And like, if you’re cold, please let me know, because I can help. If you’re uncomfortable, tell me, because I can help.
And if you can’t do that, it’s okay to get up and walk out. If you need something else, that’s restorative, to resource yourself, if it’s not this, I trust you.
Other opportunities to come together in community
(00:51:05) Ryan: So speaking of which, you have a summit coming up that really is all about building a sense of self-trust, and maybe a sense of boundaries around the self. It’s called The Self-Worthy Summit. It’s for highly sensitive people. Would you like to say a little bit about that before we sign off?
We’ll also be talking about that in a couple of weeks. I’ll be coming over to your space to do a discussion on that. Because high sensitivity is a really big topic in my newsletter audience population. We talk a lot about sensitivity in both our children and ourselves. Sometimes as a mutual discovery process, as you alluded to earlier. Sometimes they get a diagnosis, and then we realize we’ve got some of those same needs.
Kate: That’s definitely what happened. It wasn’t until I found Dr. Becky and she was talking about DFK [Deeply Feeling Kids] and I’m like, I’m a DFA [Deeply Feeling Adult]. It really made so much more sense for me.
Then I went on a deep dive, Googling, whatever, finding people who were talking about this. And that led me to the term HSP [Highly Sensitive Person]. I got like 100 on [Elaine Aron’s seminal] test. I’m an overachiever. [Laughs]
Ryan: “Not to brag, but I got 20 out of 20 on the Most Sensitive Test.”
Kate: It’s always been an issue, but it never had words. Anxiety. Highstrung. Touchy. None of the words fit.
So this is kind of the culmination of a long process of awakening into that. And it wasn’t that long ago for me, that I looked for this label or trait, and it really stuck. So I’m really grateful and appreciative.
And, are there other neurodivergences here? Maybe. I just haven’t been diagnosed. But people would say I am definitely part of the club.
And now, my yoga membership, Compassion Club, is for highly sensitive people. As I teach more and more highly sensitive people, what I find is that I can’t start with self-care. Because what gets in the way of the self-care is the [lack of] self-worth.
And that isn’t just about being a parent. There are a lot of non-parents in my memberships. But it gets really triggered, especially for moms, with that stereotype of having to “put your children first.” And then our worthiness goes down and down. We get to the point where we’re not even prioritizing ourselves at all. We’re not even on the list, much less top of the list.
So that’s where I wanted to start–with “I’ve been the bottom of the barrel of self-worth. What would I want to hear or sense in my body?”
And then: “How would I want to go forward from that?” From believing that “This is something wrong with me” to “This is something cultural that we’ve been indoctrinated with.” And experiencing that in our body on a nervous system level.
And then, belonging. “How to go forward knowing we’re not alone, and what tools do we need to be more self-trusting?”
Self-worthy is a made-up word, but really, it’s describing a highly sensitive person who really understands how this trait can be amazing, and so needed at this time in this world.
Ryan: Yes. And when you say “This culture that we’ve been indoctrinated in,” please tell me if I’m inferring correctly, just from my own lived experience as a sensitive person, that we’re in this culture right now, in this time and place, that in my understanding and in my research as a history person and history teacher, is a bit of an anomaly. In the past [and in the present!], Indigenous cultures would have wanted to discover the gifts of every person, and really would have wanted to maximize that in some way.
And we have seen that sensitivity is a trait that is not just in humans, but it’s also in animals. And really, it’s adaptive, right? If you are a sensitive person, you are literally taking in more bits of information per second than other [organisms]. You’re going to notice the differences between this patch of grass and this other patch of grass. You’re going to notice that they smell different. You’re going to notice that maybe one makes your body feel differently than the other. And you’re going to then potentially use that to become an herbalist, or a doula, or somebody who is just an expert forager. And that’s such a gift to a community.
And in this time and place, we don’t value people who are taking in that amount of information and experiencing the world with that level of nuance. Because very often in this time and place, we are so overwhelmed that it doesn’t manifest as, “Hey, I’ve got this neat talent.” It manifests in [babies] as fussiness. It manifests in toddlers as meltdowns. It manifests in our older kids as shyness or rage.
I have been a high-achieving student by day and absolute meltdown town queen at night for a very long time–or at least I was, until I started really understanding my nervous system better. I had toddler-like meltdowns well into high school, when I was taking a bunch of AP classes, then going to work, and playing sports. It was too much, but I didn’t have words for that.
So I think that our culture of really high stimulation, as well as our culture of nonstop achievement and grind, leads to a lot of negative symptoms of overwhelm in folks who are sensitive–where in a different time and place, they would have been mostly gifts, and they would have been adaptive and supportive to our communities.
So what I’m hearing you say is that this is an opportunity to really reclaim these gifts as gifts.
This is also an opportunity to touch in with common humanity, right? A key component of self-compassion is just: “Oh, other people feel this too. There’s a name for this.”
There’s also breaking-news brain science that wasn’t even part of my training as a learning specialist 10 years ago, that we’re just able to integrate now.
And as you said, the conversation about neurodivergence is just evolving at such a rapid clip that the words that we’re using now to try to get our arms around this ineffable thing–in 10 years they might be different. In 10 years, they might think that talking about “sensitivity” is like, so outdated, and there’s a new word for it.
Kate: Right, exactly.
Ryan: There are devotees and also critics of everything that we do, right? Highly sensitive people, deeply feeling kids. And for the most part, I think they’re valid critiques.
Kate: I’ve written on that too.
Ryan: Yes, you have, very courageously. I think that you and I are both people who are saying, “Let’s use this word as a key to unlock some resources that we need, while also holding this key very lightly.”
Like, it’s a finger pointing at the moon. And maybe in the future, we’ll use a different finger.
And also: we don’t want to leave anybody out. We don’t want to be pathologizing. And we don’t actually want to push this label on people who don’t actually find it very helpful. Or prevent people from getting access to the right room for them, right? If you label your kid a “deeply feeling kid,” and what they really need is resources that are specifically for children with autism, then it’s not actually that helpful. Maybe you’re not pathologizing them, but maybe you’re also preventing them from getting something that they really need, and growing skills that would help them stay safe in the world.
So, yeah, labels are so tricky. And I also think that you and I hold them very lightly, and really see them as skillful means to connect people to each other. To help people name their experiences.
And ultimately, as you said, to find a path to feeling as though these traits of mine are not weaknesses, they’re gifts. And just being able to protect our nervous systems to the degree that we can manifest them as gifts rather than feeling tortured by them.
Kate: I love that you called it skillful means. That’s like skill in action. In yoga, that goal is always guiding me.
(01:01:06): Final thoughts
Ryan: There’ll be a replay of this coming out and intending later this week.
In the meantime, Kate, we can find you at healthyhappyyoga.com.
We can find you at katelynch.substack.com.
Is there any other place where you live where you’d like for us to find you?
Kate: That’s perfect. I’d love to hear from people here. And I really appreciate you, Ryan, always. Thank you for your wonderful questions. You are the best.
Ryan: Absolutely. We’re lucky to have you as a fairy godmother to the In Tending community, and to get to pick your brain and learn from your years of experience.
Hopefully some people can actually go to your retreat–it sounds amazing.
And if you can’t get away, you can join us for our workshop around Mother’s Day.
And if neither works for you, then maybe we’ll see you at this HSP summit at the end of the May.
And we’ll be getting online to talk more about that on May 20, so please mark your calendars with this link if you’d like to join us again!
