"You don't need to know how to play to say something"
The team at Outer Frequencies tells us how they planted their perfectly-imperfect punk scene in the sand
“I love creating connections between people, though that sounds super cheesy and maybe a tad self-important. When they happen, usually accidentally, something lights up in me that takes over and feels really great, and I know I’m doing something meaningful. I think that’s part of why starting Outer Frequencies with Mike and Bec was so attractive.”
— Vanessa Downing, co-founder, Outer Frequencies
In my last post, I mentioned having spent the halcyon days of my twenties doing the best work there is to do in that era of your life: hanging out with chefs and musicians, and with the people who write about those people.
Mike Fournier and I met during that time of my life. While I was his editor, meaning I was technically his boss, I was also a bit in awe of him as a writer. By that time, Mike had written a book on The Minutemen for the 33 1/3 series and scored a gig teaching punk history at Tufts, which added up to near-infinite indie cred in my mind. But Mike, to his credit, is deeply humble and deeply kind despite his many accomplishments. He’d rather talk about the new bands he’s been listening to than himself, which is how he got those gigs in the first place.
Fortunately, I was able to convince Mike, his partner Rebecca Griffin, and their friend Vanessa Downing to talk about not only themselves but their latest project, Outer Frequencies, which aims to bring more punk music to the decidedly un-punk shores of Cape Cod.
While the venues and crowds here may be smaller than nearby Boston and Providence, the team does throw in some special perks to entice performers to come out to this thin strip of land, off the coast of Massachusetts: a free place to crash, and some home-cooked meals, no small deal when you’re touring for weeks and living on fast food.
“Mike and Rebecca have been incredibly generous and hospitable, offering their home and even taking them out sightseeing,” Vanessa tells me. “It’s a very special aspect of Outer Frequencies that touring artists receive this personal and heartfelt treatment. We really see these artists more as friends, peers and part of our greater indie/punk DIY family.”
Like many of us, the Outer Frequencies folks are balancing their community-tending work alongside various other priorities. Mike still writes about music, plays in a band called Plaza with Rebecca, and tries to fit in a regular meditation and yoga routine. When she’s not scoping out new venues or jamming with Mike in the basement, Rebecca stays busy with her work as an educator and radio show host. Vanessa’s a parent to a young kid, and plays in the band Samuel S.C.
Those of us who dream of starting similar community-minded projects, but feel like we don’t have time, that we’re liable to fail, that no one will come, or that we might just end up lookin’ a little silly, can learn a lot from the punk-influenced approach of Outer Frequencies: just find a venue, tell your friends to show up, and figure it out from there. And be sure to take care of yourself as well as you aim to take care of your scene.
As Mike himself says in the interview below, “I think it’s easy to talk yourself out of doing something like this. I’m here to talk you into it.”
Ryan: Where did you grow up? What else grows there? What was it like for you to grow there?
Mike: I grew up in the Boston suburbs until I was thirteen. I was miserable, but didn’t know it at the time because I didn’t have anything to compare it to. When my parents and I moved to New Hampshire, it took me a while to adjust. I assumed, thankfully incorrectly, that the daily cruelty I dealt with would be part of my life. Thank goodness it wasn’t.
Rebecca: We moved around the Midwest a lot before I was 9—so mostly corn and soybeans. Then we moved to Upton, Massachusetts—so mostly trees. I thought Massachusetts looked very haunted compared to Illinois.
Vanessa: I grew up in Herndon, VA – a small town in Fairfax County, about 40 minutes outside of DC. At the time, I thought Herndon was the best place in the world for a kid to grow up…small, safe, with some vestiges of its rural past. I remember thinking that one day I would move back there as an adult.
Of course, everything changed after I went off to college, came out, discovered punk rock and felt the urban pull. When the massive expansion of the DC suburban bubble and office park boom took over pretty much all of Northern VA in the 90’s and 2000’s, any small-town charm Herndon once had all but disappeared. I don’t think I could find my way around or recognize much if I went back now.
Ryan: What is your earliest memory of tending another being?
Mike: We always had a cat, though I wasn’t always involved in the day-to-day care of it. Certainly not the litterbox aspect.
Rebecca: Every year I’d win goldfish or two at the school fair in Illinois. I loved them, but they always died pretty quickly.
Vanessa: We had pets my whole life, but the first that I suppose was “mine” was an orange tabby cat we got from a pet store at the mall, because it was the 70’s and my parents didn’t know any better. I named him Andy after my Girl Scout camp counselor…notably, my first female crush!
Ryan: What or whom have you most loved tending since?
Mike: I had a great time as a camp counsellor in my early twenties, teaching kids about ecology and conservation. Since then, I’ve gotten into teaching, which rules—my first gig was teaching punk rock history at Tufts. Since then, I’ve taught film, literature, and English composition.
Rebecca: I teach English at Cape Cod Community College. I love the students and seeing their successes, both large and small.
Vanessa: Well, right now I’d have to say tending to my 3 ½ year old son, Geo. I've never had an experience quite as challenging and rewarding as parenting a tiny human from birth!
Ryan: Right now, you’re working to create something very unprecedented in our sleepy area of Cape Cod – an all-ages music series called Outer Frequencies. How did this project come about? How is it going so far?
Mike: I was a fan of Vanessa’s band Samuel S.C. when they were active, but never got a chance to see them play. Well, turns out Vanessa lives a few towns over from us on-Cape. We met through Instagram and started hanging out, and from there the three of us had the idea of trying to get some shows happening here.
Rebecca: When we lived in other parts of New England, we came across a lot more original and loud music. We wanted more shows like that to go and see! Mike and Vanessa have lots of mutual friends and contacts. It all just seemed more possible when we could work together.
Vanessa: Like Mike said, it was so refreshing to meet people at this age on the Cape with mutual interests and similar musical backgrounds. We just started throwing this idea around of starting up something loosely inspired by what the Positive Force folks have been doing for decades down in DC: all-ages concert events, often coupled with social activism, and benefiting local non-profits. And then we all got excited!
Ryan: What kinds of venues have you been using to host the series? How did your relationship with those venue(s) come about?
Mike: I think we all come from the days when kids rented granges, VFW halls and churches to put on shows. I made a list of all the places on-Cape that rent space and started making cold calls. The very first place we called was Christ Church Episcopal in Harwich Port. It’s a great space, and our friend who works there, Lisa Berman, has been so supportive of us bringing noisy punk rock to what’s normally a very quiet space.
Vanessa: It’s been interesting and fun to explore different spaces as possibilities, too. Having lived on the Cape for 20 years and worked with various arts nonprofits, I’ve either performed in or produced events in cool performance venues. We’ve also had very positive conversations with private businesses like coffee shops and galleries who are interested in being involved, and other less obvious venues like Lower Cape TV in Orleans. They’ve got a very cool new space there full of potential.
My hope is that over time we are able to produce events in a variety of spaces and towns, so that we can reach and include as many people in this series as possible.
Ryan: When national acts come through, where do they stay? Where do they eat?
Mike: So far, all the acts have stayed at our house. We really like cooking for people (another form of tending!), so we usually prepare at least one meal for musicians. Plus the Cape has no shortage of great breakfast and coffee spots, so we’ve been to Nirvana, to Bread & Roses, to Grumpy’s.
Ryan: Have you met any new friends as a result of hosting these events?
Mike: Oh, totally. I think we all knew there were people with similar mindsets to ours on-Cape. It was just a matter of finding them. Since we started doing shows, we’ve met all kinds of great folks from all over the Cape: music fans and artists and writers and musicians. It’s one of the best things about Outer Frequencies.
Vanessa: It’s been really wonderful.
Rebecca: The Cape seems a lot smaller now that we’ve started doing these shows. It’s great coming across these networks of folks that are already in place.
Ryan: What do you think the most positive and/or powerful impacts of the series have been thus far on the Cape Cod community? On the artists themselves?
Rebecca: It’s fun to travel around and hang up flyers because people are starting to know us and get excited to see the shows. Lots of folks have told us they are psyched to have new and different types of music options in the area. We hope to continue growing connections for everyone.
Mike: I hope people are feeling like there’s a grassroots community of like-minded folks they can tap into for joy and comfort and mutual aid. And I hope that the artists see this, as well.
Another thing worth mentioning is that the Cape is close to Boston, close to Providence – I think that bands and musicians dig having a chance to see someplace new as they move between their more established fanbases.
Vanessa: I would add that the all-ages aspect has been something I’ve gotten a lot of positive feedback on. So much of the music scene on the Cape centers around bars and eating establishments, or is really just about “entertainment” for adults only, or in some cases, children only. Not that any of that is bad. We wanted to do something that centers squarely on the artists and the community, bringing all kinds of people together to experience something unique, and without a prohibitive ticket price attached.
It’s not a novel idea, and of course there are plenty of amazing non-profit arts and performance centers doing similar work. Still, I feel what we are aiming for is special.
Ryan: If someone wanted to re-create a community or sangha similar to the one you’ve created, how might you lay out a list of ingredients and/or a recipe to cook this up in their area?
Mike: I think it’s easy to talk yourself out of doing something like this. I’m here to talk you into it.
Find a few friends who can help you chip in and rent a space. You can rent or buy a PA system—a few microphones, a set of speakers and a soundboard. These can be found on Craigslist pretty easily. Or skip the rental entirely and do a show at a house, in a garage, or a basement.
Ask bands you like if they’ll play – or, better yet, start your own band, even if you don’t know how to play anything. You don’t need to know how to play to say something. Or skip the bands entirely and have a poetry reading, performance art—anything you want.
Rebecca: It’s not as hard as you think it will be. Be honest with those willing to trust you (i.e., those willing to rent you a church space, even if they don’t share your taste in music). If it’s going to be loud, tell them up front it will be loud. Have faith that people who share your interests will eventually find you. Bring trash bags.
Vanessa: Mike and Rebecca nailed it. I’d add - be as open to all ideas, while also having a clear vision of what your goals are. It’s not hard to marry the two. Find people who share your ideals and go from there. Get excited and be willing to take risks. Remember that things take time, but things don’t just “happen” unless someone takes the wheel—so be the driver (or essential co-pilot!). Treat the endeavor with the same level of seriousness and passion you would for a new job or relationship. The artists, the spaces, the support and the interest in creating something fun and new - they are all out there waiting to join you and help the ‘thing’ succeed. And from there, it will likely evolve beyond what you initially imagined.
It’s not as hard as you think it will be. Be honest with those willing to trust you. If it’s going to be loud, tell them up front it will be loud. Have faith that people who share your interests will eventually find you. And bring trash bags. — Rebecca Griffin, co-founder, Outer Frequencies
Ryan: Are there other people you admire that are working in or writing about the DIY concert space?
Mike: The shining light is 924 Gilman Street in Berkeley, which has been running all-ages punk shows since the late ‘80s. In the ‘90s, my pal Ed McNamara was one of a bunch of folks in Worcester that started The Space, a non-profit arts spot where all the best bands of the era played. In Washington DC, a space called Rhizome has also been doing a lot of great DIY shows.
Vanessa: My band has been touring a bunch the last couple of years and I’ve been the principal booker. Through my research, networking and outreach I’ve discovered DIY events in a variety of settings: house shows, skate parks, multi-purpose arts spaces (often managed by a collective), historical buildings, record shops, even bike shops! One of our favorite shows was in a small basement room underneath a head shop (!!) in Wilkes-Barre, PA. It was about as DIY as it gets, and the vibe and energy of the room was incredible.
Ryan: When you’re feeling bummed about the state of the world, what song(s) do you listen to in order to rekindle some hope?
Mike: So many to choose from here. During the pandemic, the Coriky LP was a fantastic balm.
Rebecca: Stevie Wonder.
Vanessa: I truly haven’t given up hope…but I am definitely angry, exasperated and worried for the future of my child. So at the moment, I’m more interested in finding ways to channel angst into action, to at least temporarily upend that feeling of paralyzation. For those moments I’ll throw on a classic, like Public Enemy or Fugazi.
You don’t need to know how to play to say something.
— Mike Fournier, co-founder, Outer Frequencies
Ryan: It can be easy to lose sight of yourself when you’re sending all this tending energy outwards. How do you all come home to your physical bodies after all this community-building?
Mike: I used to run, but my knees can’t handle it any more, so now it’s biking, weightlifting and yoga. Eating lots of fruits and raw vegetables.
Rebecca: I go for walks in the woods.
Vanessa: My exercise regimen is off and on…when I’m in a good rhythm, it’s running, floor mat exercises and very light work with free weights. I kind of hate exercising mostly because of the time it consumes, and generally find it boring… but my mind and body definitely need it, especially at this age.
Ryan: Clearly you all value art and creativity. How do you tend to your own interior life and creative projects?
Mike: I’ve been an off-and-on journaler for years. I was most consistent during the pandemic, because the days tended to blend together and I knew I wouldn’t remember a lot of what was happening unless I wrote it down. I’ve been writing narrative vignettes in some form since the late ’90s, mostly in print zines. I love creating punk artifacts: zines and flyers for shows and, more recently, t-shirts—I took a silkscreening class last year so I could print shirts for me and Rebecca’s band Plaza. As I write this, I’m winding down a project where I sent a one page zine to friends every month for fifty months. Speaking of which, I also love the songwriting process. We’ve been working on a bunch of new songs to play at upcoming shows – so much fun. All this plus meditation, which I now stack atop yoga.
Rebecca: Finding music for my radio show and sitting with our cats. Talking on the phone with my brother. Poetry. Photography. Collaging/making books. Making music with Mike.
Vanessa: I love creating connections between people, though that sounds super cheesy and maybe a tad self-important. When they happen, usually accidentally, something lights up in me that takes over and feels really great, and I know I’m doing something meaningful. I think that’s part of why starting Outer Frequencies with Mike and Bec was so attractive.
I also love making music with friends who are endlessly more talented, and pushing past my own bounds (or at least perceptions) of mediocrity. It doesn’t need to be amazing or earth shattering or life changing. The perpetual risk of mediocrity aside, I just want to keep going and making music to the best of my ability with people I enjoy spending time with.
Connecting in a meaningful way with family and friends, and checking in on people is also critical to the health of my inner life. Plus, watching my three-year-old child play and grow and change with amazement, joyful wonder and only occasionally murderous eyes.
I should probably be in therapy and doing yoga like every other liberal mid white woman over 40, but who has the time?
I should probably be in therapy and doing yoga like every other liberal mid white woman over 40, but who has the time?
— Vanessa Downing, co-founder, Outer Frequencies
To what mentors, teachers or texts do you turn when you’re looking for inspiration?
Mike: There are so many! Fugazi was a band from Washington DC that reached a huge number of people through keeping door prices low, maintaining control of their affairs and touring relentlessly – their ethos was years ahead of its time and continues to resonate. Similarly, the Minutemen, from San Pedro CA, were a bunch of regular dudes who made some of the best music ever by keeping expenses low and touring sustainably – they jam econo.
Jen Angel passed away in 2023. She was an author and organizer who I respected and admired. Her zine Fucktooth was a big inspiration on my understanding of social issues, as well as my writing. And Aaron Cometbus’ long-running zine Cometbus continues to provide inspiration.
Rebecca: I keep going back to Emily Dickinson.
Vanessa: I’ve met some pretty incredible people in my life who at any given time I could call upon for mentorship or just damn good advice, including my own parents. I’m generally inspired by those who seem to create good stuff effortlessly—art, good vibes, whatever—but clearly work very hard, on top of any ungodly talent they might possess. And people who are relentlessly kind, open, curious and positive—regardless of how shitty things might be around them—they make me want to work harder. Mike and Rebecca are great examples!
Besides Outer Frequencies, what communities or sanghas keep you sane?
Mike: I’ve been writing for Razorcake for more than ten years – it’s America’s only non-profit punk magazine. Razorcake embodies the best of punk’s do-it-yourself ethos and unites a crew of contributors from all over the world. I’ve met so many great people through my time writing for the mag – it’s the punk community I always dreamed of finding, and I’m grateful to be part of it.
Rebecca: My poetry group of mostly elder women, students in the Creative Writing Club I advise at the college.
Vanessa: I operate best on the “micro” level, keeping my community small and tending to it, feeling safe and providing that feeling of safety and comfort to those around me. I like knowing who my neighbors are and giving a shit about them. On a macro level, I’m gay but I don’t really know much about the gay “community” apart from a lot of people have hated us, or been afraid of us, or wanted to be us, or wanted to hurt us, but it’s such a diverse group of people. I certainly connected to the punk/hardcore community when I was in my early 20’s, because I always felt like an outsider and these were definitely a bunch of misfits. The music was secondary and didn’t always resonate, but many of the ideas and attitudes did.
Ryan: What makes you feel the most free?
Mike: Recently I’ve been thinking a lot about a lyric from Operation Ivy’s “Sound System”: “to resist despair in this world is what it is to be free.”
Rebecca: Riding my bike.
Vanessa: Honestly, when I’m on stage playing loud, wall-of-sound, amp driven music, drums rattling behind, surrounded by all this chaos and finding the thread of my voice pushing just through there, my mind and body loose and detached from any self-consciousness or worry—I’ve never felt so free as when that’s clicking. It doesn’t happen every show, and sometimes just for a moment here or there, sandwiched by “Oh shit, does this sound good? Did we fuck that part up? Do I look stupid? Will I fall down?” But occasionally you get a real run of it, and it’s an unbelievable feeling that you never want to end.
Where can people find you if they want to engage further with your work?
Mike: I’m at michaeltfournier.org and at @xfournierx and @policymakercapecod on IG.
Rebecca: I have a radio show on Cape Cod Community College’s radio station, 90.7 WKKL, on Sundays from 10 am-noon. It’s called Eclectic Kitchen.
Vanessa: My band, Samuel S.C. can be found on Bandcamp and all the streaming services, shitty as they might be. We’re also on social media. I’m at @samuel.sc.theband and @vadog22 on Instagram.
And of course, you can find all three on Outer Frequencies.
The next OF show is Dar Sombra and MiniBeast, ex-Mission of Burma, Volcano Suns, plus a local opener, on Friday Sept 5 — so mark your calendars now.
Great job, Ryan. I know Vanessa from my eight years hosting an open mic at the Wellfleet Preservation Hall. She's terrific!
Wow, three gems! Loved reading this interview and getting to know Mike, Rebecca, and Vanessa. Your questions opened up lovely explorations of creativity, community, and dharma in the biggest sense. I also loved how you used 'tending' as a thread to weave things together.
All of this makes me wish I lived on the Cape and could hang out at these shows! But even better, it provides inspiration for thinking about ideas for my hometown....